sf115
18 ( +1 | -1 ) How do you beat the grunfeld?I have this freind who is an expert on the grunfeld. He is also good at the sisilian so I don't want to play 1.e4. I need a good variation of the grunfeld to beat him, which line do I choose?
tag1153
20 ( +1 | -1 ) Check out.............the annotated games list on my profile. Look for Bobby Fischer's Game of the Century. It is a fantastic Grunfeld game.
nottop
126 ( +1 | -1 ) not like thatIt's not as though you are going to "beat" the grunfeld. Isn't going to happen. You might well defeat an opponent using the Gurnfeld, but the opening is sound - there is no way to "beat" it.
Look for a style against the grunfeld that suits you - the exchange variation is the most popular and certainly gives white chances to hope for a small advantage. If you like open games and don't mind an isolated queen pawn, the exchange variation might be your best choice.
If you prefer a closed and more positional game then there are several alternatives that also give white hope for a small adavantage.
Download high quality grunfeld games from twic (free) and play through many of them to become familiar with the ideas and seek the style that suits you best. It's not that one approach is better than the others, but one approach is more appropriate to your style of play than the others.
If it were me playing white against the grunfeld, I would not play the exchange variation because I think the resources for black are too much - I would play a more postional variation and if I didn't want to do that - then I wouldn't open d4.
ionadowman
54 ( +1 | -1 ) "Beating" the Grunfeld...... You might consider avoiding it, if you don't like the game White gets from it. I played the English Opening for years, and although I wasn't too concerned about transpositions into QP openings, I did make a point of avoiding the Grunfeld, rather then learn an extra bunch of theory. Something like 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.d4 ... 3.e4 put a crimp in Black's ...d5, but it did leave open other possibilities, such as ...c5. But, as an "English" player, I didn't mind that in the slightest. For one thing, it was surprising just how often the "c4 c5" set-up turned into a Maroczy-Bind Sicilian(!). Cheers, Ion
sf115
15 ( +1 | -1 ) Thanks for the sugestion but I hate the english. As black I play 1. c4 e6 to avoid going in to the english but I need to look more closely at the 3.e4 line for white
ionadowman
108 ( +1 | -1 ) OK: forget the English......Here's a suggestion from Yasser Seirawan: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 ...
b
Now, if 5...dxc4? 6.e4 grabs the centre and picks up the c-pawn. If instead 5...c6 6.cxd5 cxd5 7.e3 restricts the action of Black's K-bishop. The line is a species of Exchange Slav defence. Finally, 5...Ne4 seems best for Black, taking out the B-pair after 6.cxd5 Nxg5! (the alternative 6...Nxc3 I'll discuss next) 7.Nxg5 e6 8.Nf3 (Seirawan's idea behind this line. Instead, 8.Qd2 is less effective: 8...exd5 9.Qe3+ Kf8 10.Qf4 Bf6! is OK for Black) 8...exd5 9.b4 (inaugurating a Q-side minority attack) 9...0-0 10.e3 closing off the g7-bishop's diagonal.
b
Black has the B-pair, but White has a comfortable game, and his minority attack has begun.
After 5.Bg5 Ne4 6.cxd5 Nxc3?! 7.bxc3 Qxd5 8.e3 White retains more of a grip on the centre and the g7-bishop's future is limited by the well-protected d-pawn.
This is Seirawan's "Anti-Grunfeld" line. Enjoy. ;-)
sf115
9 ( +1 | -1 ) thank you very helpful but what happens if 5...0-0 or 5...e6. and which book did you get this from?
ccmcacollister
12 ( +1 | -1 ) If you know it better ...1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.f3 He can still play d5 here but has no capture on c3 to follow with. And if you get him into a KI, Grunfeld players usually dont do well in it ...
ccmcacollister
7 ( +1 | -1 ) ps..Unless of course they Are KI players, who Happen to be playing a Grunfeld ... :))
sf115
6 ( +1 | -1 ) I might use this as well as the Yasser Seirawan line
ionadowman
193 ( +1 | -1 ) The 3.f3 line does have this virtue...... If the enemy plays into a KI, you get to play the Samisch - a very aggressive approach. In the Seirawan line, I don't reckon White has much to apprehend against 5...0-0 or 5...e6. Against 5...0-0, why not just 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.Nxd5 or even 7.cxd5? With instead 5...e6, Black is subjecting himself to a pin, which doesn't look all that smart (though, I agree, looks can fool you). But maybe 6.e4 is a reasonable response, with the idea 6...dxe4 7.Nxe4, or possibly 6.cxd5 exd5 7.e4 etc. I haven't explored this idea far, but it seems to me that getting rid of the g7-bishop after exchanges on f6 is no bad thing for White. The latter line does leave him with an isolani on d4 in a relatively simple position, but Black's K-side is looking pretty porous.
All my earlier remarks are pretty much straight from Seirawan's own book "Winning Chess Openings" (Everyman Chess, 2004). Not a book for advanced players - for a given value of "advanced" - it doesn't treat openings in great depth, but does give you a pretty decent "feel" for what each is intended to achieve. Quite often it will end at a point of great complication and suggests careful study with the help of a more comprehensive opening manual. I've only recently discovered this book, and I quite like it. My own view of this volume is that it is a good place to start looking into any opening in a general kind of way, whence one may go more in depth with actual play and a book that treats that opening in more depth.
As it transpires, the line is also given in Chap. 14 of my ancient copy of Bill Hartston's "The Grunfeld Defence" (Batsford, 2nd ed. 1973). It doesn't mention 5...0-0 nor 5...e6 either. One suspects this is due to both moves having a serious downside! More than likely this is because White can pretty much force Black to give up that g7-Bishop. Food for thought, maybe? Cheers, Ion
ccmcacollister
93 ( +1 | -1 ) Ion ...I have some more info on that Yasser recommendation that I'll try to get to you and sf115 in the near future. I'd rather not discuss in the open, as one of the subvariations may currently becoming a 'hot property' at the moment, and I may want to be playing some more Grunfeld's if I don't take that Break I've promised myself. Also something of a TN in another [Bf4] line (that a class C/B player here introduced me to! Having some delightful possiblities if followed up a bit differently than it was at the time...) that may be marginal for ~WT, but a great new otb gambit line perhaps, as some Class A plus players here seem to be answering it less than adequately in the d-base here, even in corr games. Have only seen two responses I thought were good enough as BL at that time, and that perhaps the rest should even have lost from the middlegame.
ionadowman
143 ( +1 | -1 ) Craig...... all this sounds intriguing. Are you talking the "Grunfeld Gambit" line in your second paragraph? 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 0-0 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Nxd5 Qxd5 8.Bxc7 Seirawan gives 8...Na6 9.Bxa6 [[9.Bg3 Bf5 looks pretty decent for Black]] 9...Qxg2 10.Qf3 Qxf3 11.Nxf3 bxa6 favouring White. The problem with playing a line like this is that most of the interesting stuff has already happened and you are starting off in the late middlegame. Exchange a pair of pieces and you are into the ending. That might suit me if I were playing for a win - I fancy White's chances in this position: Black's isolated doubled a-pawns diminishes his possession of the bishop pair in my view. I like White's central pawn majority, as well. But it all feels as though one were playing only the second half of the game. sf115, you might, if you fancy your late middlegame and endgame technique, look into this line as an alternative "Anti-Grunfeld" weapon. You have to be ready for 5...c6 or 5...c4 instead of 0-0, though. E.g.: 5...c3 6.Nf3 0-0 7.Bd3 (7...dxc4 Bxc4) 5...c4 6.dxc5 Qa5 7.Rc1 ... [[Not 7.cxd5, apparently: after 7...Nxd5! things get sticky for White: 8.Qxd5 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Qxc3+ 10.Ke2 Qxa1 11.Be5 Qb1! [[12.Bxh8 Be6 13.Qd3 Qxa2+ 14.Kf3 (14.Ke1 is no better) 14...f6 (threatening ...Kf7 and ...Kg8) 15.Bg7 Nc6 16.Kg3 Rd8 16.Qe2 (16.Qb5 Qd5 -+) 16...Qb1 (threatening ...g5 and ...Qg6 winning the bishop) 17.h4 Rd1 18.Nf3 a5! and White is in no condition to stop this pawn's career. An interesting line, though, don't you think?]] 7...dxc4 8.Bxc4 0-0 9.Nf3 Qxc5 ...
sf115
12 ( +1 | -1 ) I liked the line: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 0-0 5. Bg5!!! any more info on this line? (is this Yasser Seirawan's line which is "hot property")
thunker
12 ( +1 | -1 ) sf115I think you must have a typo... Black can't O-O on move 4 because his Bishop is in the way.... You must have left out a ... Bg7 somewhere...
ionadowman
49 ( +1 | -1 ) Well...... I haven't all that much to add to my earlier remarks in this line. You might want to look into White's responses to 5...e6 or 5...0-0, but I don't reckon White has much to fear from them for the reasons I suggested earlier. It looks as though we might have to wait on ccmcacollister to come up with this new info. Clearly there is some good reason why he feels he isn't in a position to provide it at this stage... :-)
sf115
12 ( +1 | -1 ) didn't I ask you (ionadowman) about the 5...e6 and 5...0-0 lines above?
ionadowman
64 ( +1 | -1 ) Yes, you did...... I was going to suggest you look at the GK (1900+) database for this 5.Bg5 line. There are no examples of 5...e6, but there is one of 5...0-0 that led to a Black win. I think White went wrong with a subsequent Qb3, as up until then he seems to get a fine game after 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.cxd5 c6 8.dxc6 Nxc6 9.e3 , a pawn ahead with a central pawn majority don't look bad. All the same, it is worth playing the game through to see what the resources for both sides, particularly Black, are. (Some are inclined to disparage the GK databases, but don't underestimate their value!) It looks as though 5...c6 (and its transpositions) has been also successful for Black. Maybe that too has to be investigated.
sf115
29 ( +1 | -1 ) It was 15. Ra3 that lost it for him. up untill that point he was a pawn up. He wasn't losing by very much when he resigned. According to the "opening explorer" database on www.chessgames.com, it says that the moves played in top level games are: 5...Ne4, 5...dxc4, 5...c6, 5...c5, 5...0-0 and 5...e6 so it might be good to look at all these replies
ccmcacollister
254 ( +1 | -1 ) ionadowman ...Interesting Grunfeld Gambit info. Actually that line is all new to me, but adds to my impression of the Grunfeld having such a wealth of possibilities to explore. Many are not known to me, being one of those KI players who backsup with a Grunfeld sometimes, maybe looking for some fun you know :) I'd played it from time to time before, since Fischer had played it and that is who I liked to study, but really got interested more in the opening for its own sake after reading an article by Alex Dunne on Leisure Link, in which he tracked and analyzed its use in the USCCC postal chess championship tournament in the USA. And found it fascinating. Then got into games of Al Levine from during his quest towards the WC tournament. He played a line with an early ...Nc6, without ...c5 first which was interesting to me. And got into liking to study the line too, that involved 10....Qc7 and Rd1 with Bb5, Bd5 or Bxf7+ sacs. *** In the Yasser recommended line, I've 'Liked' 5 ... Ne4 as Black. At least enough to play it. Yet there seem to be some interesting ideas there for WT to explore which I don't recall seeing before. And the BL pawn gambits there after Nxg4 etc. haven't really brought anything to mind for me that seemed particularly frightening to WT. Like gambitting the pawn c6. So in playing them I've rather regarded and treated them as drawing lines for BL to play, in his trade of pawn for activity and Bishop play. [Then tended to lose interest during play if nothing new shows up.] But am trying to reassess and see if I might play such better as a win/lose attempt, and what chances I've maybe overlooked in the past. Which will probably be a challenging and time consuming something-to-do since it seems to me now that its WT who may have the more ideas waiting to be found/tried. I would think with ideas being there, play must come around to these lines, and likewise 4.Bf4 lines, moreso before long. & It will be interesting to see. The last book I picked up and looked at for those did not really cover the lines well IMO. Especially those gambits. Believe it was Adorjan's. Sounds like the Yasser book would probably help me too. I have always appreciated his tactical + positional abilities, plus ability to find concepts [such as pointing out a strong "b3" move unplayed by Karpov as WT, while commentating on that Samisch KI game. Yet tactical ability to play a mate in 14 once himself.] but have not studied him due to style and opening choices differing too much. Perhaps it is time to do so now; with his writing on this opening now.
sf115
12 ( +1 | -1 ) the yasser book would be very helpful but I'm not sure if it's detailed enough for me to use aginst very good opponents.
ionadowman
35 ( +1 | -1 ) That's fair enough...... Seirawan's book really is just a starter, and is intended as such. If you like what he has to say so far, then you might want to look at books that deal with the line in more detail, and, if you have one available, check out openings databases for examples. Or other contributers might have some useful info to impart... Cheers, Ion
sf115
6 ( +1 | -1 ) apart from the GK and chessgames.com databases what are there?
bonsai
9 ( +1 | -1 ) The Seirwan line is also covered in fairly good detail in "Play 1.d4!" by Palliser.
thunker
93 ( +1 | -1 ) sf115Check out the online database from Chessbase at -> www.chesslive.de - updated weekly. It finds 2000 games in this position. (1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Bg5 )
I scanned my 2006 Chessbase database for this position for any one player above 2600.. It finds 128 games. Results are 28% white wins, 43% draws and 29% black wins. White's most promising line appears to be : 5. ... Ne4 6. cxd5 Nxg5 7. Nxg5 and black responds either e6 or c6. Another good option is: 5. ... Ne4 6. Bf4 Nxc3 7. bxc3 and black can either dxc4 or c5 with good chances for white.
Best line for black continues: 5. ... dxc4 6. e3 Be6 7. Be2 for an even game -or- 5. ... dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. d5 b5 and again, a very even game
But as you can see it's quite drawish either way. I like the grunfeld playing either side though... Always makes for a fun game I think and one tiny slip from either side can make or break the game...
sf115
4 ( +1 | -1 ) more about 5...Ne4 6. cxd5 Nxg5
bonsai
38 ( +1 | -1 ) In what way is 5. ... dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. d5 b5 "very even"??? Surely that is super-sharp. Palliser does seem to think white is better after 8.e5.
Clearly and deservedly 5...Ne4 6.cxd5 Nxg5 is the main line. Then 7.Nf3 c6 is a dodgy gambit (7.Nf3 0-0 is a better gambit try). After 7.Nf3 the move 7...e6 is the most solid reply, but gives white a calm position with a clear plan.
thunker
179 ( +1 | -1 ) sf115Here are the games in Chessbase Mega2006 database for one player 2700 or above on the 5 ...Ne4 line. 5 games - 3 white wins, 2 black wins... The opening sequence isn't necessarily the same as your line - but the resulting position is the same.
Karpov,Anatoly (2700) - Kortschnoj,Viktor (2635) [D91] London London, 1984
thunker
979 ( +1 | -1 ) bonsaiHere are the games from Chessbase for one player 2600 and above for the 5. ... dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. d5 b5 line. 6 games, 2 for white, 1 draw and 3 for black. Draw your own conclusions! ;-)
sf115
14 ( +1 | -1 ) I think the 5...Ne4 line is better because it seems to be more solid. There are better players in this line.
Why is the anaysis in German?
thunker
8 ( +1 | -1 ) In germanBecause the annotator was probably German. That's how the game stored in database.
sf115
4 ( +1 | -1 ) can you use english annotations on an english website
thunker
48 ( +1 | -1 ) sf115This isn't from a website. This is the ChessBase MegaBase 2006 database that I purchased. It's the same as buying a book - if a page is in German, then all you can do is try to translate it. Most of the games that are annotated are in English, but this one happens to be German. You'll either have to find a German speaking person to translate, or manually translate it via on online translator such as -> babelfish.altavista.com
sf115
2 ( +1 | -1 ) can you put games up on 5...c6, 5...c5, 5...0-0 and 5...e6 please
bonsai
74 ( +1 | -1 ) A game for 5...c5Here's a game I played in November in a league match where my opponent played 5...c5: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 c5 6.dxc5 Qa5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Qxd5 Bxc3+ 9.Bd2 Be6 10.Qxb7 Bxd2+ 11.Nxd2 0-0 12.b4 Qa3 13.Qxa8 Rd8 14.e4 Qxb4 15.Rd1 Qxc5 16.Qb7 Nc6 17.Bb5 Nd4 18.0-0 Bc8 19.Nb3 Qg5 20.Rxd4 Bxb7 21.Rxd8+ Kg7 22.Bd3 e5 23.Re8 Bc6 24.Rb8 f5 25.Nc5 Kh6 26.Rc8 Qf6 27.Rc1 Qd6 28.h4 1-0 12...Qa4 is an improvement for black, but still better for white. In the end I was a bit sloppy and 20.Qc7 would have finished the game even faster. In the final position he lost on time, but it was fairly hopeless for him anyway.
This is a game I won against GM Ftacnik in a simulataneous: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 Ne4 6.cxd5 Nxg5 7.Nxg5 0-0 8.Nge4 c6 9.dxc6 Nxc6 10.e3 e5 11.d5 Ne7 12.Bc4 a6 13.a4 Bf5 14.0-0 Rc8 15.Bb3 Qb6 16.a5 Qa7 17.Ng3 Bd7 18.Qd2 Rfd8 19.Rfc1 b5 20.e4 Rc5 21.Na2 Nc8 22.Nb4 Bf8 23.Kh1 Rxc1+ 24.Rxc1 Bxb4 25.Qxb4 Qxf2 26.Qc3 Qf6 27.Rf1 Qd6 28.h4 Ne7 29.Qd2 Kg7 30.Qg5 Rf8 31.Nh5+ Kh8 32.Qh6 Rg8 33.Rxf7 1-0
23.Qg5 would have kept my advantage, but I blundered it away. However he managed to throw the game away again with 29...Kg7.
sf115
5 ( +1 | -1 ) Have you found this line solid to use?
are you a GM, IM or FM?
wote
36 ( +1 | -1 ) you can always try to get into a 4 pawn attack, Transposed
ionadowman
54 ( +1 | -1 ) wote's posting ...... is more relevant than it might look, reminding me as it does of my own practice in OTB play, namely 1.c4. If my opponent was happy with the KID, so was I, but after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g7 3.d4 d5 we got into the Grunfeld. To avoid this, 3.e4 is quite playable: 3...Bg7 4.d4 d6 5.f4 into the 4-pawns attack (one of my favorites also). So that is one way of ... erm ... "beating" the Grunfeld: play 1.c4 2.Nc3 3.e4 etc, steering, if possible, for a King's Indian Defence. At move 5 White has many choices more popular than the 4-Pawns... The game quoted by wote is, by the way, a drastic example of what can befall Black if he plays too passively in the early stages.
sf115
16 ( +1 | -1 ) I am looking for a more solid reply. At the moment by reply to the KI (if I played 1.d4 usally) is the exchange variation (1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 e5 6. dxe5 dxe5 7. QxQ perhaps in a differant move order)
ionadowman
29 ( +1 | -1 ) 5.Nf3 ...Is still possible after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.d4 d6 5.Nf3 transposing into normal KID lines. That's if you don't mind the KID, and don't mind other choices available to Black. Not sure what you are asking in your last question, sf115. Cheers, Ion
sf115
7 ( +1 | -1 ) sorrey, I wasn't clear. I meant the line which goes 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Qb3.
ionadowman
97 ( +1 | -1 ) The "Russian System"There's a whole complex associated with this line: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 (White could also play this at move 4 instead). b or b It seems that Black can play the defensive 5...f3 (to which White invariably responds 6.cxd5), or 5...dxc4 6.Qxc4 But there seems to be a fair bit of theory involved with this, which I would prefer to leave to someone who knows something about it! Broadly speaking, however, White establishes a broad centre of pawns at d4 and e4, with the Q at c4 inhibiting Black's usual ...c5 break. Against this, Black obtains a lead in development and active pieces that can give White's Q a hard time. This one you might need to consult an opening manual. ;-)
sf115
3 ( +1 | -1 ) how can black play 5...f3. The knight is in the way.
sf115
3 ( +1 | -1 ) are there any more variations?
sf115
3 ( +1 | -1 ) are there any more variations?
ionadowman
41 ( +1 | -1 ) Oops...5...c6, not 5...f3 The material I have available considers only 5...dxc4 and 5...c6 at this point, regarding the latter as rather inferior. Following this the game can take many courses, far too much for any kind of comprehensive treatment in this forum. You really need now to find a book or something on it. However, we could maybe submit a game or two to illustrate the resources available to both sides, which can be a bit of a help.